2P START! Live!: Up and Away Edition
November 23rd, 2009
Listen in to hear Tim plead his case for why UP sucked, the truth behind Toad in Mario Bros, more pathetic proposals, whether or not the comic schedule should change, and Eddie unloads on Ray regarding Sonic.
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P.S. – For those who are interested, you can hear the entire, unedited, 45 minute discussion on the movie Up here. The version that made it into the podcast was a compilation of the funniest parts. The unedited version will probably make a bit more sense, but would bore all but the most diehard Pixar or 2P START! fans.
This is the first time the podcast is on time in…. I wonder how long?
I think it’s broken, It won’t work for me…
Works for me… though I’m sure you won’t be the last to say that. “No musics?! No pics (beyond UP)?! OH NOEZ!”
…Okay, I think I might join that throng. As I listen to the podcast, I am deeply disappointed that I don’t here that sweet sound, “Rwise fwom youwr gwave!”
Nevermind, I just had to use a different program…
Ok, I’m going to have to totally disagree on your point about sports, especially about yelling at umpires at baseball games. The whole point of yelling at an umpire isn’t to reverse a call. No one on a professional baseball team is stupid enough to not realize that umpires have complete control over the game. Baseball’s rules specifically state that umpires calls are final. So why do they argue with the umpires? Same reason why you need fans in the stadium, morale.
If a coach gets fired up and goes out to the umpire to argue a call that he thinks is terrible, it can really get his team fired up. They have something to prove, that they need to overcome this bad call. The coach is out there for them, arguing and sometimes getting kicked out of the game so that the players don’t get kicked out and that they have to stick with it and keep fighting. Without the fans, what are sports? If you’re playing for a professional team and your stadium is empty, or no one is cheering for you, it’s really demoralizing. So, while I understand this is a gaming comic … let’s not turn into the people you’re making fun of in the show for not understanding eh?
Nice podcast, guys. Always love it when Eddie is on.
I have to side with Ray on Eddie’s “ultimate Black Doom Award”, though.
It’s true that Sonic games are meant for kids, and they should be. You should always strive to expand your audience, because if you only focus on the audience that you have, it will just get smaller over time, as the old fans get lives, or simply lose interest.
That doesn’t mean they should be aiming for JUST kids, though. Nintendo’s games have always been targeting the old AND the young, and they’re simply better games because of it.
The old Sonic and Mario games weren’t made just for kids, like Eddie seems to think. They can be enjoyed by young AND old. The only reason the old didn’t enjoy the games back then is because video games were still new and scary to them.
But I missed out on some classic Mario and Sonic games when I was young. I only played PC games until I got a Nintendo 64. And even then I wasn’t introduced to the old 2D Mario and Sonic games until the Gamecube era. Some even eluded me all the way until they were released on Virtual Console.
And, as an adult, I could still thoroughly enjoy those games, despite my lack of warm, fuzzy childhood memories connected to them. They were simply good games that anyone could play. A quality new Sonic games lack.
I laughed at the ultimate black doom award.
The great debate about Sonic. Who will be the next president of the United Sonic fans?
Eddy? Ray? or… Sega?
Married in a Pikachu custume? Pretty lame, huh?
So THAT’S where the Mario voice cme, huh?
Not really paying attention the first run, gotta run it again sometime later.
Awesome, a morning Podcast! Glad I inexplicably woke up two hours early today — my 2P START! senses must’ve woke me up. Nice debates, though it’s hard to take sides on either Up or Sonic, since everyone made pretty solid arguments. And the little marriage/proposals segment toward the end — just wow, some “people.”
So, I think I’ve misinterpreted “Musical Misfits” in the past as just picking out random favorite video-game songs (rather than forgotten but great songs), so rather than a song from a Windows Touhou game (all greatly known for their music), I’ve browsed through all the music from the old PC-98 games and found a lost favorite song from Touhou 1: Highly Responsive to Prayers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWtnPcddVN0
Well, it’s off to class for now, but I’ll be taking a listen to the unedited Up debate later today.
Hm, seems I accidentally linked to a special recording of the song; here’s a more “pure” version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keg90dxeJBQ
Good MM suggestion. It beats out anything I was thinking of suggesting this week.
1. My view of Up: “Good characters, bad plot.”
2. Um..Alpha was a doberman wasn’t he?
3. Uh…blimps don’t use hydrogen anymore…
4. I’m with Ray, I don’t like the Mii in Mario Bros. idea. The style of the characters is totally different.
5. Perhaps this whole shifting view to younger kids is why Rouge hasn’t been appearing lately…
6. And now that I think about it, I remember liking Sonic Heroes quite a few years ago (I was probably like 12!) and then I bought it recently, and hated it.
7. Oh and the Silver Surfer in the comics still exist, so there’s still an accurate depiction of him.
8. Musical Misfits: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCzQ1IX64oY
Newer Sonic games suck because they are not made to be good (not for adults, not for children, they are crap for everyone.) They make money because most kids are can’t tell a good product from a bad one. Anyone who spends time with kids knows that they like shiny and colorful things. When a product attempts to appeal to this desire I call it the shiny factor. The only thing current Sonic games have going for them a strong shiny factor. Current Sonic games are the ultimate expression of form over substance.
Oh my… that certainly was long. Not as good as last week’s, but still great. Can’t wait until next week!
Ok, so maybe I did get Sonic the Hedgehog 2 for my 12th birthday, I still agree with Ray that Sega could and should put some effort into making the games for the audience that grew up on them as well. Nintendo gets it, which is why I’ve continued to enjoy Mario games over the years, up to and including NSMBwii, but Sonic stopped being interesting post-Sonic & Knuckles. Quality, not quantity, please. I have some hopes for Project Needlemouse, but if it turns out to be a bust I guess I’ll save my money.
As for NSMBwii, forget the Toads, I still say Wario & Waluigi were overdue to join the Mario Bros. Sure, they’re antagonists, but even Bowser’s worked with Mario on occasion. Plus, in the context of a 4-player competitive/co-op type of gameplay, it seems like it would have been obvious. Ah well.
And, for the sake of argument, while I didn’t hate UP, it’s looking like the first PIXAR film I won’t be getting on DVD. It was okay, but I just don’t see myself wanting to watch that particular one again.
Sonic Team shouldn’t have made Sonic games after Sonic 1, Since the rest until Sonic and Knuckles was handled by Sega Technical Institute… Except for Sonic Cd, that was a Japanese ordeal… but that one sucked and only adds to the discussion
The best part was when you were talking about the ridiculous marriages. This podcast could really just be about bad decisions people make in general, not necessarily in video games.
No, Up was awesome and you know it. Probably every bit as good as WALL•E.
And plot complaints, you’re joking right? That movie literally made every other thing that’s come from Hollywood in the last couple years look like a boring, generic predictability-fest.
You shouldn’t use the word ‘literally’ when you exaggerate.
Okay, I haven’t really outright said this yet, but I pretty much agree with Tim about Up. I liked it more than he did, but I still think his points are completely valid. The movie made no sense. The main villain (whose name I forget) should’ve been long dead. He actually looked younger than Carl. Second, the collars gave the dogs the ability to talk. That’s totally fine, it made the movie funny and created the great character that was Dug. However, there is no reason why they should’ve been able to fly planes. Oh and the most obvious one, the amount of balloons used to lift up the house aren’t even enough to get a child off the ground (as shown by Mythbusters). Was the movie horrible? No. Did it make much sense within the context of it’s own established “reality”? Not at all. The movie makes very little sense. Doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy it, but Tim is right about the logicality of it.
Yeah, you’ve got a point, I will admit. But come on, things like flying houses and other questionable fantasy elements have been used in fiction stories before. Can’t we just BELIEVE it for the story it is? It doesn’t need to realistic… it just needs to be enjoyable and tell a good story. Same goes for Miyazaki’s recent work of art Ponyo. Does it really need to be so realistic every last thing makes sense in real-life terms? No, it just needs to make sense within the established reality of the story. And if Muntz was in his early 20’s at the start of the film and Carl was 9, 69 years later he COULD still be alive. And I doubt his dogs were always serving him food, being out in the wild he probably got lots of fresh air and ate lots of organic food. So he COULD stay a live that long. Plus, “a land lost in time”.
I’m REALLY sorry, truly and sincerely, if it sounds like I’m flaming. I love your comic, you guys are awesome. Keep it up. Also sorry for derailing a bit/coming off as a total jerk. I was just kinda lost in the moment. Again, sorry…
Leirin,
No worries, everyone is entitled to their own opinion of the movie, we can’t fault each other for that! But it’s funny you bring up Miyazaki, as that’s a great example of how Pixar should think about movie-making. Miyazaki makes some of the trippiest movies out there, but you never think “That’s so unrealistic!” Why? Because he never pulls you out of the reality created in the film. It’s all cohesive. In Up, we get these partial explanations of how something could kinda sorta work, but it leaves us questioning the reality set up for us. The dog collars are one example of this. Muntz age wouldn’t be an issue if they left out the Roosevelt reference that SPECIFICALLY dates him! Otherwise we wouldn’t know how old the two of them are.
To their credit, Pixar does a fine job of setting up the movie’s world in their other flicks, but for some reason, since this movie starred people, they had a tough time trying to balance reality and fantasy.
Internal consistency in fiction is a very big deal.
It’s why you can believe in dragons and wizards in fantasy, but if someone acts just slightly out of character it can throw you out of the moment.
It sounds like Up made the basic mistake of trying to appear as if there’s a logical explanation for half of the fantasy elements, and then just leaving you having to believe the rest. Miyazaki makes no mistake about his stories taking place in a fantasy world, and all of his characters act consistently with the internal logic of his worlds.
To put it another way, which is better:
“The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It’s an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together”
Or
“The reading’s off the chart… over twenty thousand. Even Master Yoda doesn’t have a midichlorian count that high”?
I haven’t seen Up, but I still think that every other thing that’s come from Hollywood in the last couple years is a boring, generic predictability-fest.
I don’t think it’s terribly likely that Up is what makes you think that.
Literally.
Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. WALL•E had it’s fair share of “reality issues”, but enjoy the movie too much to really stop and think about it. Being able to develop that sort of technology in, like, the 20’s is kind of ridiculous. I wish they’d have left out the Roosevelt reference you pointed out. It kind of felt like they were trying to intertwine the fantasy story the movie had with reality and it ended up a little… awkward. But yeah, you’ve got valid points.
Also, thanks for not hating me. I was a little worried my own ignorance made such a cool comic-maker mad.
First things first, I would like to apologize about my comment last week. I said that I thought the Klondike section was too long. Thinking about it, I realized that if the section was added as a separate bonus, like this one, then I probably would have enjoyed it more. Thus, it was just psychological and I was being rash in my opinion. I’m sorry about that, I’ll try to think it through next time.
Hope it’s alright if I add a couple of thoughts into the Up discussion, though I’m sure you guys are worn out when it comes to this subject.
1. The environment of Paradise Falls was originally supposed to be much more colorful. The Pixar guys stated that the location they visited for inspiration had extremely colorful and somewhat unbelievable plants. They changed it to the much duller environment, as seen in Up, because they wanted the environment to seem more realistic. Otherwise, they were afraid that viewers wouldn’t believe the jungle area at all and would end up feeling disconnected.
2. Dogs flying planes and fighting with them is rather silly. Although maybe they were creating a play on words. You know, dogfighting. Technically, the dogs were fighting, but fighting in those WWII era planes would be a reference to aerial dogfighting. Maybe it’s too much of a stretch in terms of humor?
3. Not worrying about Russell is fine, but in a lot of other movies, we always know that the protagonist is going to live. James Bond goes up against incredible odds and his shots always hit the targets. The bad guys always miss their shots and if they hit him, he’s going to live; they can’t kill James Bond. Maybe it’s just me, but if a character is in a life or death situation, then I’m going to wonder how does it affect the other characters and how are she/he going to get out of it? If a protagonist does die, then a lot times there are more complaints then compliments. In other words, the character’s death doesn’t have the right effect on the audience.
Sorry for the long post, just some of my thoughts will listening. Nice podcast.
Regarding the “Russell in danger” idea, I never expected that anything would happen to him, but I think the point was to show the lengths that Muntz was willing to go. And once the villain shows that they would be willing to (directly or indirectly) kill for what they want, that’s like the ‘OK’ for them to get what’s coming to them.
[that’s pretty vague but I’m a little fuzzy on the particulars at this point, plus now it’s mostly spoiler-free].
I had a feeling that when I saw that “Love Plus” story on GoNintendo that it had “Black Doom” written all over it…so…creepy…
I mean, comparably, the Pikachu/Raichu thing is pretty weird, but at least they’re both still people under the costumes. But marrying data?! That’s just messed up…
You just don’t know what love is.
Woah! Now I totally disagree with Tim. I hadn’t listened to the extra bit until just now. Kevin was my favorite character. I can’t remember the last time I hated a villain as much as I did the one in Up.
Hey guys! I guess it’s time I rise. I’ve been listening to the show off and on for the past few months, and I’ve got several of my other coworkers listening on the night shift. I religiously view your comics, starting with number 65 — I think, the Define Addiction one — but my favorite was the Super Paper Mario comic titled “You Can’t Judge a Book”…
That comic, as well as the some points made during this podcast, really form the basis of my largest gripe with Nintendo. The Paper Mario series and the Mario & Luigi series were built on the back of Super Mario RPG…one of the best games ever. It just seems like all of the games in the following series were missing the excitement and the gloom — the highs and the lows — that were in Super Mario RPG. Could Square just have done that much better of a job? Maybe. It just seems like Nintendo only does enough to sell a game, and they don’t pander to their fans at all…I feel like I deserve a bit of pandering! The same goes for New Super Mario Bros Wii (all the characters in the Mario universe and we get to play as two toads!?) and Mario Galaxy (Where is Yoshi!?)
They just need to listen a bit more to fans is all.
As for the Mii in New SmbWii, I would have liked it as an alternative or unlockable. Maybe after beating half of the game?
How much money can you make until you have to start paying taxes?
I agree on the whole Mii into NSMB Wii, I mean why…WHY two toads I mean yeah, I would have understood one toad, that being the Red colored one and having the Blue and Yellow toads run the Life/Item houses.
Who would be the fourth one then? I’d say Yoshi…just have him as a playable character and have the yoshi eggs replaced by a yoshi suit. But I guess having Mario with a long tongue swallowing goombas is a bit…too much I guess.
Still Mii unlockabiltiy should have been used at least for Coin battles or such ATLEAST.
Also, thanks for the mention, guess I’ll have to keep by my word now. Good thing I didn’t promise to make Ray and Tim breakfast every morning.
//DrakeZiggo
Haha! I did not see Eddie’s Black Doom Award coming at all.
Also Ray, I don’t want to nag but when will the new shirt designs be up for sale, specifically the Pixel Vision one?
We are being told very soon. Stay tuned.
Sob, Sob,
Hey guys, i found this place last week, and it was awsome! I stayed up all night watching and reading everything! Yet, i rised from my grave last week……….. I feel ignored and neglected (like batty 1580 did)
ps YOU GUYS ROCK!!! And inspired me to make my own web comic!!!
no m4a
(dramatic pause) nooooo!!
It’s not like they said anything worth anything.
-Tim points up the reasons Up is not the best movie
-Eddie complains to Ray about how Sonic has always been for 12-year-olds
Eh, this one was okay. At some points, it just seemed like one long rant.
Still, I’m just nitpicking. This podcast was still better than 95% of the other stuff out there. 😀
HEY! I just noticed something! Ok, first off, I disagree with Eddie on the whole “Bro” thing, as I use that term all the time. Didn’t he say once that, “You don’t say ‘bros’, you say ‘brothers’. You don’t say ‘ink’, you say ‘incorporated’ ” Or something to that extent? He said Monsters Inc. like “ink”, so be sure to rub that in his face Ray. Please? GET BACK AT THE EVIL TWINS!!!!
and btw, UP was great to me, I thought Pixar’s worst movie by far was Wall*E.
So, having listened to both the podcast and the 45 minute Up discussion 3 times, I have come to the conclusion that the edited conversation makes Tim’s arguments sound much weaker than in the real discussion. Though I am sure Ray didn’t edit it like that on purpose or anything…
I had the exact same impression.
I decided pretty much from the beginning that I would focus on the parts of the conversation that were funny, and leave it up to the die-hards to track down the full audio if they wanted. But, no, it wasn’t a purposeful neutering of his arguments.
Had family over that hadn’t seen Up, so we of course had to watch it. They only do the squirrel joke 3 times with the third being the plane one. They do it once in an extra short, but does that really count?
And Muntz is the most unlikable character to appear in any medium. He has no redeeming qualities, and is not an interesting villain. Sure I hate him, which is the point of a villain, but I almost hate him so much I can’t stand to even watch the movie.
I’m super late in commenting, but Nice Podcast Guys! The lack of music wasn’t that big of a deal, but really shows how much effort Ray puts into editting it into the podcast. It was great to have Eddie as a guest again, along with all the fun topics he brought. The Up argument was good, and the BDAs were fantastic!
I also have a Musical Misfits suggestion this week. It’s the Donkey Kong Battle Plus from Mario Vs. Donkey Kong.
ugh. my little sister didnt like sonic gameplay in unleashed but loved werehog more.
Weirdo up is the best movie ever.
I don’t know if it was mentioned, but sine last married the Berlin wall…
O.o
Sorry, I was using a bad keyboard. I meant “someone once married the Berlin Wall…”
And, years later, super mario bros mii is announced. Wow.